This episode features an interview with Dr. Rachelle Ornan, Director of Cabin Research and Passenger Experience at Boeing. In this episode, Rachelle talks about the advent of space tourism, the pent up demand in leisure flight, and how passengers expect life in the air to be as connected as life on the ground.
This episode features an interview with Dr. Rachelle Ornan, Director of Cabin Research and Passenger Experience at Boeing. In this episode, Rachelle talks about the advent of space tourism, the pent up demand in leisure flight, and how passengers expect life in the air to be as connected as life on the ground.
Quotes
“Travel is the spice of life. I’m working in an industry that enables connection to other people. It’s the best weapon against xenophobia while also stimulating the global economy. That’s something I can contribute to through my work."
Time Stamps
[0:03] Intro
[2:36] From Human Factors to Aircraft Interior Design
[6:20] Traveling Post Pandemic
[8:25] The Data of Air and Spacecraft Design
[10:51] How the Consumer Market Informs Design
[12:56] Staying Connected in Flight
[16:23] The Future of Air and Spacecraft Design
[18:56] Accessible Design
[22:52] Space Camp Dreams
[26:04] The Next Frontier in Travel
[33:39] Rachelle’s Favorite Things About Industry
[37:18] Quick Decisions
Links
Books mentioned:
A Life of Meaning, by James Hollis
The Golden World, by Robert Johnson
Your Brain on Love, by Stanley Tatkin
Connect:
Connect with Rachelle on LinkedIn
Connect with Lauren on LinkedIn
Thanks to our friends
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Lauren Vaccarello: A lot of us are feeling restless these days. Maybe you’re anticipating an upcoming vacation. Or dreaming of hopping on the next plane out of town. Imagine yourself boarding, looking for your seat and stashing your bag. There’s the moment you’re pushed back in your seat as the plane takes off and transcends a layer of clouds.
Then for a few hours, maybe, you have that time to yourself. You can watch a movie, read a book, take a nap. It’s a special experience, being in flight. And today, we’re talking with the person who has a hand in designing that experience.
Yes - there’s someone whose job it is to think about the specific colors of the lights, the fabric of the seats, the height of the tray table. Someone who considers the atmosphere of the cabin, the humidity and altitude, and how that can affect everything from the taste of the food to how rested you feel after the flight. That someone is Dr. Rachelle Ornan. She’s the Director of Cabin Research and Passenger Experience for Boeing.
Over her 14 years at Boeing, Rachelle has focused on both the passenger and crew experience. She has developed concepts for cabin interior design and lighting displays, and researched generational differences in passenger needs. She also helped design the interior of the CST 100 Starliner capsule. Recently, she’s been working more on the space side of Boeing, helping develop low Earth orbiting modules. That’s not new to her - before Boeing, Rachelle developed inflatable space hotels for NASA.
Rachelle is working in the aerospace industry at a critical moment in time with the relaxing of pandemic restrictions and the advent of space tourism. The result of decisions she’s making now will be around for decades, and literally leave the Earth. That’s some legacy.
Today we’re talking with Rachelle about the pent up demand in leisure flight, space tourism, and how passengers expect life in the air to be as connected as life on the ground.
So without further ado, let’s get into it. Welcome to Truth Be Known.
We have another exciting episode of Truth Be Known today. We've got Dr. Rachelle Ornan. She has an incredible, super, super interesting job. She's the Director of Cabin Research and Passenger Experience at Boeing. Rachelle, thank you so much for coming on this show. Tell us about your job, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Rachelle Ornan: Hey, thanks, Lauren. And great to be with you guys. Tell you a little about myself. Usually I get asked what is it that you do again? And I usually say that's a really good question. You know, when I spent a lot of time in school and no regrets, but I started the corporate world later than normal, I would say. So, I came in with this expectation of maybe doing more academic type work at Boeing, but it quickly shifted into more of a hands-on kind of deal. The job description I replied to asked that I had human factors background, design training, knows how to work with shop tools and is interested in small spaces. You know if you like pursue something, you see kind of a job description. You're like, if you just do it, you know you're going to get it. I had that feeling with this job because I was like, this is such a unicorn position. I don't know anybody except me that has this. So the first job at Boeing was really fascinating. It was a concept center, and if you've heard of concept centers like Nike Kitchen has one and IDEO was the whole thing is a bit like a concept center, but that's what I joined at Boeing. And we were responsible for coming up with novel interiors, cabin features, new configurations and other ideas or designs that had to do with improving the passenger experience and the crew experience. So that's how I got started. I then had a migratory path through sales and marketing. And that was fascinating because I got to travel the world and I sold interiors. Basically I described qualitative and quantitative research to airlines to tell them why our passenger expense was preferred compared to competitors. And I also help them configure their aircraft for maximum revenue and maximum passenger satisfaction. And lately I've been working with the space side of the house. And about 10 years ago, I helped with the interior configuration and design and lighting scheme for the CST 100 Starliner capsule. And these days, I have just become I'm an Associate Technical Fellow, which means it's equivalent of like a tenured professor at Boeing. And so now I'm more on the strategy side of things coming up with hiring strategies for filling out the human factors discipline as well as working on, top of the mind important issues such as when COVID was occurring, how do we respond and other interesting topics like that. So it's really a bit of a grab bag, but if you think about the interior, passenger experience and me, I fit in somewhere within that realm.
Lauren Vaccarello: That is amazing. And super interesting. So basically, anytime I'm on a Boeing aircraft, I can think of you.
Rachelle Ornan: You curse me too much. But I try my best to balance the needs of the airline to make revenue and the needs of the passenger, and it's really a give and take. Sometimes a tug of war, but we really try hard to make everybody happy. I guess that's the best way I can put it.
Lauren Vaccarello: No, that's awesome. I actually was on my first long haul flight in... since before COVID. So I will thank you for that experience.
Rachelle Ornan: Yeah.
Lauren Vaccarello: It was only a little a little bit scary, a little bit scary. I was flying into Europe and my transit country. Everyone on the plane needed a negative COVID test or needed to have the vaccine. And that made me comfortable getting on an airplane. And you know what? We are fortunate in the United States to have the opportunities to get vaccines and travel again, because not everyone is so lucky, but I was just, I was excited to leave my house. I was excited to get on a plane. I used to live on airplanes.
Rachelle Ornan: I hear ya. Yeah, no, it is exciting to get back to traveling again. And there's super huge pent up demand. I mean, our industry is going to take off again soon and, the fact is an airplane environment is pretty much at the level or better than a hospital operating room in terms of the amount of filtration that happens and the change over rate of the air. So that was quite a task, was getting that information out to the flying public because it's something everybody wants to know. And same with airports. The incidence rate of COVID amongst people that work in the airport and flight attendants was far lower than in the regular population. So, I knew the inside scoop on that, so I wasn't as worried. And I was one of the lucky ones to get COVID very early. You know, Boeing is a really big company and I was Boeing employee number seven worldwide to get it. And as you know, in the U.S., it kind of started here in Seattle. So I was lucky enough to get it early. Maybe that made me a little more confident in going about my regular business for the rest of the pandemic. But I had a perspective about it that I think was really useful for the company, because I could actually describe how I felt the fear, what I was listening to on the news, the things that were going through my mind. And I don't know. I didn't think I'd be able to contribute in that way, but I was able to.
Lauren Vaccarello: And it sounds like so much of your career has been pulling from all of these different experiences and applying all of these different experiences to the current task at hand. The current problem that you're solving.
Rachelle Ornan: There's always something happening that's new and different. And there's always, I guess I would say a new challenge, a new issue that we need to tackle as an industry.
Lauren Vaccarello: I think about the work that you're doing with aircraft design, and I'd also love to talk about what you're doing designing spaceships, because I just think that's interesting and that, you know, someone has to do it. But as you're doing this, as you're doing aircraft design and sitting through engineering, what are you using to help airlines make some of these decisions? What's your thought process and what's your decision-making process?
Rachelle Ornan: We do quite a bit of trend analysis. We adhere to, or let's say, subscribe to several publications. We do a lot of our own internal analyses. We have an amazing database of our order book actually from, you know, the dawn of time. So if you're interested in trends and knowing how airlines are configuring their airplanes to support maybe a regional need or a trend that started locally and becoming more global, we have access to heaps of data if we are interested and we can analyze our own internal numbers, crunch them and present them back to the airlines. We will never admit or discuss what a particular airline is doing because it's proprietary information related to branding and their growth. But you can quite often show that a trend is on its way or still very much on point when you're, for example, trying to convince an airline to add another cabin class of service, let's say. And the funny thing about trends in the aviation industry is that they last a really long time. Because history is notoriously built on safety, built on trust and lasts a really long time. The 787 has been designed to last 80 years, which is one of the reasons why I like working for a company that creates products that lasts that long. But you know, these trends last a good long while. And sometimes airlines, depending on their sophistication, they may need a little more convincing or a lot less convincing. So it's really good to have that type of information for them. So I would say a combination of trend analysis, keeping up neighboring adjacent industries, hospitality is one of those. Cruise ship travel is another one of those. Now we've got the space tourism market. It's kind of an exciting time for us to take a look at that, but that market is relatively unproven. We don't know the exact value of it. So you asked about the space side of things. Sometimes we really lack the important information we need to make a business case for why we want to go for something. That's the more difficult side of the house I would say. But in general, yeah, we can assist airlines with a variety of tools and techniques and archives of information.
Lauren Vaccarello: I think that's super interesting. When you're looking at data and you're doing trend analysis, how do you start to figure out that this trend is coming? We think this is a direction that the industry is going to go into.
Rachelle Ornan: Well, you know what's a really good thing to look at is just the consumer market. So for example, I can go to Home Depot and I can buy crazy color changing led lights now for $10. And I can all around my house and I can have them color change and go with the music. So you have to take a look at what consumers are able to do today in their own homes to understand their expectations for when they travel, right? And a huge thing that the industry was maybe a little slower to pick up because the technology really wasn't there yet, but being able to stay connected the entire travel. I mean, you remember when like, oh man, the biggest thing, the most awesome thing was to get a movie on the screen in front of you. But it was kind of disappointing because they're still charging you for it. Oh, but now, I mean, what's fascinating. And I on occasion, look at the aircraft passenger experience group, and I check out the job listings, because if you want to see what's coming down the pipeline, you have to see how other companies are ramping up and what they're hiring for. So find that really interesting and the whole entertainment industry for flight is huge. So the customized content, being able to watch your shows, but watch specific documentaries, anything you want. I mean, the bandwidth is now getting to the point where you can really customize how you spend your time on the aircraft. So there are a lot of outside influences that you can consult with.
Lauren Vaccarello: It's interesting what you were talking about, Rachelle, on looking at consumer behavior and how that informs plane design. And I think about that in software development and our expectations on B2B software have changed dramatically because of what our expectations are as consumers and how consumerization of IT is dramatically impacting business software and what our expectations are from a user experience perspective. And it sounds like that's translating to what we expect our experience should be sitting on an airplane or, one day sitting on a spaceship.
Rachelle Ornan: Yeah. Oh, I think that's going to be a huge component, not just for entertainment, but just for constant connection to other people, right? I mean, I think you probably saw the, well, I don't know. I watched the Virgin Galactic and well then launches I don't know whether it was convenient dropout of connectivity know a bit too much about space travel and motion sickness is a huge part of space travel, especially when you first go up. So I don't know if the camera was turned off because Sir Richard was experiencing some issues, but we all want to broadcast what we're doing. We want everybody to know. I mean, maybe not so much my generation, but of course the younger generations, that's all what it's about. Right? You want everyone to know your business. It's going to be huge and staying constantly connected is huge. Yeah, I don't think you can get around. Everything's got to be seamless and, with AI coming on board, hopefully it will be getting smarter and more empathetic and not so creepy, but that's going to start to infiltrate user expectations too.
Lauren Vaccarello: Absolutely. And to this point where we'll all just assume life on the ground and life on the air should be the exact same thing.
Rachelle Ornan: Yes, yes.
Lauren Vaccarello: Should be seamless.
Rachelle Ornan: It's assumed however, there are some old school, older school people. I don't know if I really put myself totally in the old school, but you know, I was around when you could completely shut down, read your book, watch a movie, whatever, and think about your life in very profound ways. Because the environment is distinct and unique and there's no other place you get that where all of your demands on earth are gone. No one can talk you. And all you have to do is think about how either, you know, you think about your new year's resolutions. You think about how you've been performing. Am I being nice to others? I mean, the really important stuff in life. All those conversations I had with myself over the years I must have had the largest life breakthroughs on airplanes.
Yeah. I'm
Lauren Vaccarello: I'm with you on that. This is a terrible thing to admit. I missed the no internet on airplanes.
Rachelle Ornan: Yeah.
Lauren Vaccarello: I used to love getting on an international business trip for work, getting on the plane and going, I have 10 hours of just... to breathe. And this is so weird. I used to sleep so well on airplanes.
Rachelle Ornan: huh.
Lauren Vaccarello: Because it didn't matter. There was nothing I could do. I couldn't check my email. I couldn't be connected. I couldn't do anything. And when there wasn't power for my laptop, it was amazing. There was no, like I should sit in work because I can't work for 10 hours and I would just get on a plane. I have my little tiny airplane meal, maybe have a glass of wine and knockout and have this incredible night's sleep because there was nothing I could do.
Rachelle Ornan: Yeah. It's pretty luscious just thinking about it. I had those days too. Yeah.
Lauren Vaccarello: And so if you could have any data, any information to help make these decisions on, you know, what future trends are happening, how would you give us all of this level of space again, what would you want to have? What would you want to know?
Rachelle Ornan: Well, I mean, ultimately, customization is king, right? Or queen. Let's use both pronouns or, and anything in between. But like, having some experience tailored just for you, it really does make you feel special. I remember hearing that, you know, this is like 10 years ago now, but that hotels were starting to customize and put your name on the TV screen when you walk in and it's Welcome Rachelle. And I'm like, ah, yeah, that's nothing. Who cares. I mean, of course Disney was a pioneer in all this way before anybody else was. But the day I checked into my first hotel that did that disbeliever, I was like, there's no way that's going to be that important. But the day that that happened, I was so taken aback at how special I felt and how it just added that little extra something. So what I truly would like to know about every single one of you out there listening is what really
makes you tick. Like if, as an airline if I could provide the best experience for you even down to. Oh man, one day, I wonder if I could like give you your favorite hand soap or your favorite scented product in the lavatory or in your little goodie bag for business class, if business class ever returns the way it used to,
I'd have that level of detail. How could I set up your cabin environment on the localized level, the levels of lighting that you prefer, or, maybe I have a few choices of textiles and pillow hardness levels for your relaxation. Your favorite cocktail, all without asking you and without it coming across as being creepy. That would be pretty awesome. And if one airline can do that and another can't, well, wow. I'd hope to be the airline that can. Eventually maybe the playing field would be so level. It would be a whole new level of expectation for everyone. But until that point, what a huge differentiator for your passenger experience. So I guess that's what I would like.
Lauren Vaccarello: Oh, that'd be amazing. I will put in my request for airplanes. I am a very tiny human. I am a hair over five feet tall. So when I travel and I want extra leg room, people always say, you don't need it. You're so small. And I was like no, we all need it. My biggest issue is my feet don't reach the floor in seats because I'm short. So I always have to have a backpack or something underneath my feet on long haul flights.
If there is some way to have a like short people seat this is my unsolicited, the personalization for little people. Cause everyone forgets about us.
Rachelle Ornan: I am sorry about that. Our industry and Boeing in particular has been considering more accessible features. And I don't just mean for... You called yourself a short person. I don't know what you call people who are height challenged or height blessed. In some ways it's probably good to be a smaller person, but there are little, I don't even know what you call them. I'm sure there's a really technical word for it, but like a shelf or something above a business class seat. They do exist. They're not everywhere, but having the adjustability of your knees coming out, but you don't always want to be in that position. So when you want to work, you want to be in an upright work posture that makes you feel like working and not taking a nap. So I understand. In terms of accessible design, one airline we've been working with in particular because of the Olympics they would be putting a huge value on accommodating passengers with different abilities. I saw this from the other day called divers-abilties, one word. I like that. And being the airline that will accommodate aging passengers so they could get everyone to the Olympics. And I think that's wonderful. They would like to be known as the airline that can provide those services to everyone. So, so yes, there is a lot of more focus on that. Passengers are becoming more and more demanding and there are a lot of interest in lobbying groups, as well as FAA ruling and 2 20 18 for that very purpose, making things more accessible. So I agree with you a hundred percent.
Lauren Vaccarello: And that's fantastic. Actually, that conversation reminds me a little bit of a conversation that I had. I had interviewed this woman who is a NASA astronaut. She had just gotten back from space, which was very cool to have it. And we were on a panel and we were talking about data-driven decision-making and we were talking a little bit about bias in datasets and was the topic of the panel. And she brought something up that I thought was fascinating and it was spacesuits are all designed basically for people that are 6'2" and have a certain weight and height. So as they're starting to get more women go to space, the space suits that they have that are all designed are for people that are, you know, a foot taller than I am. And as they're going through testing, all of the data that they have is based on everyone being of a certain height and a certain size. And then you think about, say, if there is a woman that's five, four going to space. Now she's wearing a suit that is too big, putting different pressure on her. And that's starting to show it's making performance look one way where they're not taking into account, yes, this is what the data is saying, but the data inherently is flawed because we're not on the same playing field. And I thought that was really interesting. And as you're doing all of this research and it's such an interesting mix of art and science, do you ever have times where you're seeing, okay, this is what the data is saying, but we're missing this other piece? We're missing that you know, the space suits too big.
Rachelle Ornan: Yeah. you know, I do see that and I think space industry and air travel, we have a history of coming from the military. So things are pretty prescribed and orderly and hierarchical and do as you're told and, you know, in some ways the culture, it definitely has more to change maybe than other industries. Just a little more conservative. And one of those reasons I alluded to earlier is simply because things have to be safe. You've got to have trust that you will get from point A to point B safely, successfully. I'm trying to think of an example. I actually would harken back to my space camp counselor days. This is not a Boeing example, but you know, how did I get involved in this industry or this field to begin with? It was one of those stories I can tell. So, I wanted to go to space camp when I was a kid, but you know, my parents wouldn't send me. So I was like, all right, here's what I'm going to do. I'm just going to go there and work there. I thought that was pretty interesting idea. So I did, and we had a number of students of all different ages come in summer program. I was head of the international students and it was a high school. So the oldest age group you could have. And one of their projects was to be in a simulated shuttle, space shuttle. It was back in the space shuttle days. And some of the kids served as the shuttle commander or the copilot. And my job was to get them through this simulation, make sure they landed appropriately. And then go back and check all of their switches and button presses. And if you have seen a picture of the cockpit of the space shuttle, you'll see how many switches there actually are. It's very confusing and complicated. And the one thing I noted every time was there was one button. I believe it was on the bottom left somewhere where you wouldn't really think there would be a switch, but that same switch was missed every time, no matter who it was. Male. female no matter what culture. And I started scratching my head thinking, wow, this is a trend. I'm noticing this. And I wonder if they know that this is a problem. Surely they must and why is it this way? There must be a field or an industry that takes care of this. And that's how I got on my path to human factors, psychology and design, because it combined all of those things together. How do you figure this stuff out? It's a matter of collecting the data in the first place. Sometimes that's what you have to do just to start. So there's so many research projects that are lying around here and there. The frustrating part is being a researcher in this industry, is that quite often a more pressing problem comes up and you have to put out the fire first. So the questions and issues you've been wondering about for all this time get put on the back burner, and then sometimes you lose funding. There's so much work to be done. I've always thought that we could do an entire human factors in design audit of the entire airplane, nose to tail and come up with enough work to last lifetimes. It would be a luxury to be able to do that. And I think it would be another key to a wonderful, amazing experience and improving it for all, not just the passengers, but also the flight attendants that have to work that cabin every day, multiple times a day. And, you know, the U S was kind of the leader in military measurements and the whole human factors arena, particularly in weaponry and war time. That's really kind of got its roots in that as well as industrial settings, like, manufacturing. But it's taking the time, setting the time, protecting the time, paying people to do those exploratory missions, to identify key problem areas.
Predicting it too.
Lauren Vaccarello: And what do you think the next frontier is in the airline industry?
Rachelle Ornan: Well, so the next frontier is probably making sure that we provide the right airplane for the business models that we see. I mean, we all are scratching our heads. what's it going to be like post COVID? What are we going to see? I know there's a lot of pent up demand for travel, but it's appears to be more with the leisure traveler, right. The business travel. I mean, we've all been working from home for so long. I could totally see going somewhere in person, but I think we've got to think about who our key revenue passenger is, and it may be changing from business to a leisure passenger. Maybe it's a premium leisure passenger. That person may want very different amenities in the premium leisure cabin, let's say and maybe a different kind of focus. I think rethinking the size of aircraft. I mean, it may be that people will be traveling longer trips when they do decide to travel and certainly costs associated with it, on a unit basis, larger airplanes bring the costs down. So it may be less frequent flights using larger airplanes. So that might be a direction that we need to think about. I think also efficiencies and automation will start to become much more important. We talked a little bit about AI in the passenger experience, but there's a lot of that that's happening. Maybe to speed up security lines. Instead of having people come early to wait and wait and wait, now we'll probably have the technology that can stage passengers adjust in time, kind of security check, maybe an en masse security check. Maybe it's keeping the flow rate going. So passengers can constantly walk around and have everything that AI needs to see security, health any kind of issue. Maybe it's just more fluid instead of this spits and start, stop and start process through security, like it is now. I think the connecting of sensors on the airplane, the connecting of sensors with your permission, I suppose, through your smart phones to enable data sharing, to create your passenger experience, to help you get through security. I think that's going to be huge to track your bag, even. Luggage might be another area to consider. Are we going to still bring our bags with us or will we have some other entities ship it and it will be there so we don't even have to deal with it? That could be kind of interesting too. And the whole Internet of Things, idea of getting your big data, connecting all of this disparate sensors, and making it useful, not only for me as a traveler, but for the airline, for the operation side of the house, the back office side of the house, the front office side of the house, the flight attendants. Those are the things I think about. From a passenger experience standpoint, interior standpoint I'm excited to see how lightweight displays might get integrated into the cabin, color rendering and new lighting technologies. Within reason, of course, like I don't want to star wars fight scene in the interior that would not make me feel very calm, but I can imagine having very calming particular cloud imagery or nature or something that you would probably normally find in an aircraft. We would probably recommend doing something like that. But that could really be awe inspiring, very calming and even entertainment in and of itself. It doesn't just have to be media that's the entertainment. I think any and all of those things, we need to keep our eyes peeled for changes.
Lauren Vaccarello: That's really interesting, especially as we start to get, whether it's Internet of Things data, and all the different bits of information across what passengers are really looking for, how do you improve crowd control? And I think you that the changing psychology of travel in a COVID and post COVID world is interesting and adds a completely new dynamic that just didn't exist before. And how do we need to modify travel experiences based on that? And then when do these trends start to shift again? I could only imagine that sort of combination of art and science and pulling in all of the different data points that you and your team's going through right now.
Rachelle Ornan: Well, you know, a lot of it's for the benefit of everybody and maybe it should have been there all this time. We've got a lot of research that has been going on. Biofilms and anti-microbial surfaces. Now the time is ripe for it. We have been working on it for, you know, pre COVID. It's not like this is a brand new thing, but some of the technologies should start surfacing now and getting incorporated, which is really exciting. It was never okay to have crumbs in a seat. That was always gross. So let's up our cleanliness factor. A lot of the new fabric choices, coding choices that we'll see, it will probably permeate all environments. But it would be a welcome change on an aircraft as well. Sometimes designs are just, maybe they were left the same because we didn't have the time or the funding right away to justify making that change. But I do think it's an exciting time for change. Incorporating all those things we always wanted. Not just because it's COVID not just because it's post COVID. The other thing to remember is, all these things, these changes, sound so formidable, but we all kind of got back to normal post 9/11, and it just became the way it was. And I think the same thing's going to happen here. It's just the way it's going to be. And I don't know what The next big swaying crisis, non-crisis I don't know, major change, major shift, well, maybe we've we future scenario-ized it, but it remains to be seen. But we're pretty, pretty flexible species. I would say. I think we'll get used to that.
Lauren Vaccarello: We are definitely very adaptable and it's such a good approach that how you're looking at things of this is an opportunity to reinvent and to rethink. And we're getting so much new information every day of this is what's really important, and this is how we can provide a great experience for passengers that is also a way for airlines to make money and a good work environment for all the flight attendants that are taking care of us on all of our
Rachelle Ornan: Absolutely. They really are. They are the key personnel. Let's say maybe in addition to the front desk, right? The concierge, when you first have to check your bag. Those folks and the flight attendants. And flight attendants really have the ultimate contribution to the overall passenger experience. It's based on your experience with your crew. So keeping them happy will make you happy. And making the airplane an environment that they want to work in, where they feel safe themselves, or they feel comfortable. It's just good for everybody. All of the downstream effects are too numerous to count.
Lauren Vaccarello: And then last question before we get to some quick decisions and quick answers I just want to know what's your favorite part of being involved in the aerospace industry?
Rachelle Ornan: Oh, wow. God, it is just probably the most complicated thing you should possibly work on. You will never get bored. You will never understand everything. And you know, when you speak to industry specialists, you'll find that we tend to stick around a really long time. I suspect this probably for that reason. For me personally I'm motivated by people, by different cultures. I, myself am a mutt. I'm first generation in this country. So I love learning about other countries and travel and cultures. And I dunno, I just find it really beautiful. I have friends from all over the world. To me, travel is a spice of life. All the colors, the technologies, the way people interact, it's just makes my, it has made my life so rich. So if I can work in an industry that enables connection to other people you could get a little more philosophical than that. But, you know, I feel like when we meet other people, we do our own part in creating world peace and harmony. It's a little kumbaya, but I really think it's true. It's really the best weapon we have against xenophobia and all kinds of other terrible things that humans are capable of doing. So I feel that's something I'm contributing to as well as the global economy. We know that when countries have an airline or have a way in and out of their country for freight, for cargo, it hugely stimulates their economy. And quite frankly, it lifts many cultures, many economies out of poverty and into prosperity. So that is probably the thing I love the most. I guess selfishly speaking, I just always think small space design, where people are in close proximity, it's always kind of cool. Like, I think about submarines and, I don't know, Arctic exploration teams and how they all get along for the long haul. Human behavior and in difficult situations, I just find that personally interesting and fulfilling. And somehow I like to think that that's kind of what I'm doing too.
Lauren Vaccarello: Yes. I think you were doing that as well. it has been such, such a great conversation and I didn't even get to talk to you incessantly about how you're going to make it more comfortable when I get to go to space, because I would like to believe I'm going to.
Rachelle Ornan: Another whole chat and I would love to chat with you about that. it's a wonderful thing.
Lauren Vaccarello: It's just, it's so incredible that that might actually be a possibility in our lifetimes to have citizen space
Rachelle Ornan: Yeah. Yeah. I've been waiting for this for a long time. It is super exciting.
I to apply to be an astronaut back in 2016, it was something I needed to close. I need to come full circle on it and close the gap and know that I actually. Apply because pretty much up until that moment, everything and anything I had been doing was for that one particular goal. As I neared that deadline, I realized, you know, I was kinda starting to get to like earth a whole lot. I'm super outdoorsy. I live in Seattle, I love doing skiing. I'm always doing some kind of outdoor activity and I was, you know, needed to, make sure I did what I said I was going to do. But to be perfectly honest with you, I wasn't quite sure I was ready to leave planet Earth just yet. But if I could leave, come back, do some space tourism thing. That's another story.
Lauren Vaccarello: So I am going to ask you a few quick decision questions to wrap up our episode. Don't think about it too long. Quick answers, quick decisions. What is one talent or skill that's not on your resume?
Rachelle Ornan: All seriousness, probably teaching. And I really enjoy it and it's something that's come later in life to me that I actually enjoy getting in front of people and sharing my experiences. And this is an example of that. I have had an absolute blast chatting with you. And the second one. Less important, but good on the home front is I have this uncanny ability to pick the correct Tupperware container by volume for leftovers in the pan. And I'm pretty proud of that.
Lauren Vaccarello: That is incredible. It clearly, you were an expert at spatial relations, which is where I fail, because I can't the lid right.
Rachelle Ornan: Okay.
Lauren Vaccarello: So if you weren't in aircraft design, what would you be doing?
Rachelle Ornan: Oh, Gosh. I might be doing your job because I love chatting with people. and I think it would be hoot. Uh, I might be an interior designer for homes. I also own like a camp. Like an adult camp for fun. Like, I always want to do zip lining and like whitewater rafting and stuff like that. And I think adults should have fun too. So maybe something like that or an event planner. I like throwing parties. That too. I love making good experiences for other people. and bringing people together to have fun.
Lauren Vaccarello: I like that. So what is your favorite book or TV show that you've been bingeing lately?
Rachelle Ornan: You know the last TV show I binged, which was a lot of bingeing was Homeland. I never watched it when it came out and, Somebody once told me, I reminded them of Claire Danes in that. And now I understand that that's actually not too much of a compliment. Like I'm not that deranged, but I have a lot of passion and there are some similarities I suppose. But anyway, great, great. Very long binge but great experience. And then book-wise, I do a lot of audible books and what I've been listening to mostly, are Jungian psychologists, interestingly enough, because I'm super into dream analysis and using them for my next moves in life. I find it, the most unbiased source of information that a person can access because you are asleep. There are no social expectations, societal expectations put on you and your dreams. So, James Hollis is somebody I've been listening to, and Johnson. So if anyone's interested in those things, I suggest A Life of Meaning by James Hollis and The Golden World by Robert Johnson. And one more, Your Brain on Love by Stanley Tatkin.
Lauren Vaccarello: Cool. We will link up all of those in the show notes so people can start reading those as well. And last question, what is the top piece of advice you would give the younger version of yourself?
Rachelle Ornan: Oh, yeah. I was always having this fight between, left brain, right brain, my whole life. I was raised by an engineer. and I'd always wanted to be an artist. So I never really knew what side to go with. I think I'm 50/50 but I think. maybe I would've gotten a cut to the chase faster listening to my gut rather than listening to my head and forcing my head to give me the answers. So go with the feel. And then the second thing I would say is don't take things so personally, because there are always going to be people that don't jive with you, may not like you, whatever.
It's not a personal, it's not anything you did. It's usually something they're carrying around with them and it's not your fault.
Lauren Vaccarello: That is such a great piece of life advice.
Rachelle Ornan: Yeah. So hard to do, but you know, mean people suck and it's, again, it doesn't have to do with you. Just keep on keeping on. You have your gifts to give the world. And if you don't, you're doing the world a disservice. So be you.
Lauren Vaccarello: I love that. I think that is a great way to wrap us up. Thank you so so much for joining us, for sharing your experiences. And we will have you on a future episode, completely dedicated to space travel, which will be called Lauren's favorite episode to nerd out on
Rachelle Ornan: Oh, fun. Wonderful. Love it. Something to look forward to. Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure.